WHEN FANATICISM LOOKS LIKE FUN
Although there have always been false prophets of all kinds my theme is especially a new species sometimes calling themselves The New Mystics, title of a recent book from one of their number. They are currently enjoying such a field day in America and across Europe it’s troubling. A good deal more troubling and subversive than anything that occasionally comes to your front door with tracts and that you dismiss with hardly a thought.
And curiously, despite the flamboyance of these “mystics”, it isn’t always so easy to spot them at the ideas level because they manage to insinuate via trends and expectations more mainstream within minds and churches, and perhaps because we’ve all become a bit “post-modern” and relativized where truth is concerned. Recent controversies around the phenomenon of healer/evangelist Todd Bentley who has been so improbably kicking and hissing the Holy Spirit’s power into the sick before audiences of thousands per night for months, is an interesting example of just how far many have gone beyond normal discernment in the area of beliefs. Before the Bentley bubble burst in mid August known names in religious circles like Wendy Alec of GodTV were so inappropriately enthusiastic they discouraged criticism of someone supposedly “anointed” by God with threats of divine retribution for the presumption.
NEW MYSTICS OOZING OIL AND ASTRAL TRAVELLING ARE MORE THAN A MORAL PROBLEM
Typically the scandal round Todd Bentley’s Lakeland crusade has been subject to a lot of silly in-church waffle about purely moral failings like a broken marriage and calls to pray for and not judge a “poor” stressed preacher. A failed marriage seems almost minor against the scandal of a healer over-indulging in the bars of Lakeland and the cruelty of booting a fourth degree cancer patient in the stomach, supposedly kicking the Spirit’s healing into him. (The man didn’t report healing, only pain! – you can see it on You Tube).
It’s doubtful there’s been anything quite like what’s going on since the medieval St Vitus dance and there’s a touch to it of “signs and wonders to deceive the elect if it were possible” (Mk 13:22). People are now actually following the likes of John Crowder and Benjamin Dunn whose “tokin the Ghost” (pretending to smoke the Holy Spirit like grass) and rolling in “the drunken glory” of God, making holy chaos and sacred mess, looks like a Billy Connolly comedy or (when they’re dressed in religious habits), a Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence act from Frisco. But, no, these are actually ministries, movements engaging healings and exorcisms actively promoted and eagerly sought after. Devotees are brought to heightened belief by “impartations” so that some claim they see (or commune and dance with!) Jesus and the angels in glory love fests and “Holy Ghost rave parties”. It’s all too good, or bad, to be true and some of it can seem little short of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Heresy was rarely so clownish and/or perverse as what some call the “post-modern” brand of “emergent” Christianity being peddled. Crowder claims to have been converted to Jesus in the course of an acid trip.
Even those apparently more reverent and normal in style - relatively normal if you know my opinions re the Patricia King look! - can be distinctly extravagant and strange. Religious media figures in King’s eXtremeProphetic, a US TV programme you can watch streamed on the Net, report on the likes of Joshua Mills who oozes oil from his hands and (in something like an extension of America’s prosperity gospel!) keeps receiving gold dust on his face or jewels from angelic realms and who, when his own ring was stolen, supposedly astral travelled to the thief’s bedroom to regain it. The Spirit has allegedly taught Josh how to play electric piano – it’s remarkable how bland his gift sounds when demonstrated!
Ms King, founder of EP, said to be a former witch but whatever her past, now “crazy in love with Jesus”, has travelled with angels in fiery chariots and reports making up lost hours in driving time getting teleported to conferences and so on. She wants to raise the dead and her mentoring of Bentley may be responsible for his unsubstantiated claims to have resurrected 27 souls. Despite her extremes Pat King, like others in her line, has done apparently admirable down-to-earth work with street people.
GAY’S THE WORD (OR IT’S THE SACRED DANCE)
Ms. King favours ecstatic trance dance worship which the likes of Crowder have developed big time and which at XP is in the hands of Caleb Brundidge an “ex gay” and if anything the least gay looking of some of Ms King’s new mystic friends some of whom might be felt to give a rather gay/bi vibe though smilingly locked into their de rigueur marriages. Caleb’s style in dance events look like…well… much like any Saturday night at gay disco or perhaps we might think bisexual disco…. and “holy chaos” if done in the more drunk and druggy looking style of the buddies in "holy" ecstasy, Crowder and Dunn.
[Comment added Jan 2010 - Caleb seems guilty of much and, a proof how little seemingly righteous and far seeing prophetic people really "see", he has been named as one of the three "evangelicals" whose travels and opinions have influenced the unacceptable views and recent plans of the Ugandan Church that have become an international scandal seeking to push a whole variety of draconian, unprecedented anti-gay laws through the national parliament. These laws include death for gay relations and requirement on pain of imprisonment or fine that schools, churches etc report anyone they think might be gay to the authorities. The scandal is now so widespread those concerned now say they never intended to cause what has happened but the fact is it has happened. Christ's saying about a bad tree not bringings forth good fruit (no puns here!)seems relevant. These people are simply outside the divine will and cause trouble accordingly.]
Only when the desire for change that’s sweeping Obama’s America is also sweeping religion could there be the kind of openness that lends some credence to the healers, “New Mystics”, the “Joel’s Army”, the “Elijah Generation”, “The Joshua generation” etc geared up to reform the world and set churches on a more last times or new age course. It’s undeniable there is a new age like and shamanistic style dimension to Christianity and conservatives and liberals with respectively their cessationist theologies (miracles for Jesus’ time only) or outright skepticism, aren’t necessarily correct to deny the faith this side. It’s more a question of how far should one go with it and what spiritual forces or just silliness one might be opening oneself up to, if, say, you start trawling people’s dreams for revelations, something which has become almost an obsession leading to an interpretation industry in some quarters. Yet even this can be (sort of) justified by the claim of Pentecost that “your young men shall see visions”…. etc.
Theoretically, Christians are supposed to believe in visions and miracles and there’s been a widespread shift among all churches during the last decade towards the charismatic (in South America it has been said nearly half the Catholic churches have gone charismatic). Among specifically Pentecostals there’s memory of a forecast of 1908 by one of their founders that in roughly a century a greater, more global movement would hit. So, if a colourful figure like Todd Bentley sets himself up as visionary healer and the likes of Benny Hinn and Bob Jones (see below) endorse him and declare the new wave has begun people wonder is prophecy fulfilled? And if things seem a bit different might that be the great change desired? It follows that if people won’t exercise caution (“discernment”) there’s a vulnerable, expectant audience waiting to be exploited.
Also facilitating things to the extent America is centre of these trends, is the operation of a national values system which allows some individuals (inside the churches and out) to get away with murder provided they don’t upset buddy feelings of the group and have sufficient good causes to promote and scapegoat figures to condemn to deflect criticism from the failings and subversions they themselves represent.
A PERVERSE WILLIAM BRAHAM LEGACY AND A BOB JONES INFECTION
It’s clear where the New Mystics descend from and it’s a certain breakaway (heretic) Pentecostal, a noted healer and mind reader, William Branham (1909-1965). Towards the end of his life he taught he was the reincarnated Elijah and the seventh angel of the Revelation as per Rev 10:7 and that the Trinity is a “demonic” doctrine. Branham was by any standards excessively in touch with angels, his own healer angel plus a variety of “ministering angels” who have subsequently been in touch with Todd Bentley and John Crowder. Declining from mainstream beliefs about apocalypse (which are admittedly somewhat varied and disputed!) Branham taught a Latter Rain and Manifest Sons of God doctrine which meant that a last times generation would produce unprecedented miracles that would hasten Jesus’ return to the world and cause an elite to come forth and be realized as semi-divine figures on earth. In practice this means that new mystics tend to be Dominionists, seeking to intervene in secular laws and ready if need be to rant, rail and get weepy like Lou Engel at special rallies, assemblies, fasts, against the evils of modern society in order to make the world Christian, not least by law, in ways that will help institute the Millennium for Jesus. They are thus in some ways heavily political and close to the Christian Right.
Branham followers (none are exact) are effectively a loose cult group which have nonetheless sufficiently ignored or modified Branham’s extremes to stay within the churches under the influence of especially the controversial Bob Jones, who was in touch with Branham’s main disciple, Paul Cain, and the Kansas City Prophets. Depending upon your view Bob Jones is either someone who has prophetic gifts … "of true biblical stature…..when Bob comes to a church or city almost every person he encounters is left functioning on a higher spiritual level.” (Rick Joyner) - or he’s the perfect fraud. What’s undisputed is that Jones was rejected by the Anaheim Vineyard church in the early nineties for “improprieties”, most notably encouraging women to kit off in his office to receive prophecies from God in the nude - one gathers women have since been asking for protection against Bob’s apparent tendency still to make unwanted appearances when they undress. (Letter of Rev Jesse Star of Texas reproduced at:
http://eternalpath.com/lakeland.html)
The unwanted visitations could represent gossip or hysteria but then one also reads his own associates have sometimes asked blessed Bob after he has appeared in their dreams is he really doing that and Bob has admitted he does sometimes appear. Whatever the truth it’s clear both that Bob is one of the more heterosexual mystics (it was his Emma angel supposedly launched the Kansas Prophets’ movement) and that he will go almost anywhere in the universe at the drop of a hat, even taking friends to the third heaven including Bentley. All they need to do is sit in a restaurant or wherever with him and he will take their hands so they will rise there – a procedure which recalls “rising on the planes” in occult circles. (New Age visualization exercises have a lot to do with Ms Todd and Ms King’s heavenly trips otherwise).
When Jones was young he was an alcoholic bar room brawler and womanizer. Following a breakdown during which, he relates, Jesus improbably told him he would need to kill or forgive twelve people, Jesus also showed him heaven and hell and people dissolving into him. When Jones converted the devils that he said talked to him so often amid drink were exchanged for angels - some of them Branham’s. But were the devils still speaking under different guise? It’s certainly peculiar that Jones claims to visit heaven, see Jesus daily and have prophecies galore yet has remained unhealed of kidney problems for which he’s on dialysis. God apparently told Jones (contrary to the rather strict biblical standards in the area) it didn’t matter if prophets got things wrong, prophets needed to be about 65 per cent right. It’s a fact Jones is himself quite often right for which it seems people will forgive him almost anything. His forecast God had chosen a “burning Bush” to rule America was a gift to the religious right.
THE FALSE PROPHETS CLUB
What is becoming a bit of a new and exclusive prophetic club-cum-mafia all seems to connect somewhere to the dubious granddaddy of so many things, Bob Jones, who has been spiritual mentor to such as Todd Bentley and a guide, justification and “father” to many others – Pat King considers sitting at his feet next to doing the same before Jesus! All the following names who enjoy a certain respectability in charismatic circles they shouldn’t have, show connections with Bob Jones and/or the Kansas City prophets or with Patricia King and Todd Bentley. They include such iffy writers, preachers or campaigners (many promoted on Steve Scultz's Elijah list on the Net)as:
Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle (first and chief defender of Bob Jones in Kansas City), John Crowder, David Herzog, Ryan Wyatt, Francis Frangipane, Bill Johnson, Chuck Pierce, James Goll, Stacey Campell, Bobby Connor, Jill Austin, Lou Engel, Randy Clark, Shawn Bolz (in touch with God’s angelic minister and angels of finance), Peter Wagner. Also Kathie Walters (angels have let her ride a golden motorbike round the skies because God wants believers to have more fun), Barbie Breathitt of Breath of the Spirit Ministries (is there a name connection here?) who will sell you Tarot like cards to interpret your dreams and know why you have an illness, John Paul Jackson (chosen by an angel before birth) and the wayward, Paul Cain, (periodically condemned and restored for a mixture of alcoholism and gay sex. He absurdly considers Branham “the greatest prophet who ever lived”). Cain originally helped promote the ever smiling and filmstarrish Matt Sorger who takes two healing angels with him wherever he goes and invokes revival angels almost anywhere.
Personally I don’t believe any of these people can be trusted, and certainly not as long as they are in any way identified and friendly with especially Jones and/or the memory of Branham and also so hot on the money. More innocently, perhaps ignorantly, occasionally connected with either Jones or King are Bonnie and Mahesh Chavda and sweet smiling Jason Westerfield. But Jason is another of the many-angels-to-help-him boys.
How to spot traits and ideas of false prophets inside or out of the mentioned club I'll list in Part Two.
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35 comments:
Wow, a wealth of information and well written opinion!!!
Sometimes I have to wonder if they ever bother to watch their stuff after they put it on TV. Do they ever sit there and go "man, I can't believe they bought that!" or "wow, look how significant I am!" ?
Their tactics are really so blatantly obvious - to bad that so many people are so blind.
There have always been mystic fraud and false prophets. Of course they do not believe the drivel they spout out it is just good business. There is a brilliant video on youtube by Darren Brown on this subject..
I believe that many of todays Ministers are ordained by God to preach His Gospel. Good people such as the late Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell, Benny Hinn,(I read his book) Choo Thomas (I read her book this week!) and Joel Osteen.
You are a wonderful, thought-provoking writer. All your articles are very informative and provocative.
Thank you.
Thank you for this information.
As for Jason Westerfield. I went with a friend recently to see Jason Westerfield. He is sweet, smiling young man. I believe people are being fooled by his tatics. He may be the next Todd Bentley. I just don't trust this guy. Some of the women that follow him around to his events act like they are seriously on drugs. I understand people get moved in the spirit. I am someone that loves Jesus with all my heart.
Jason and his young family are really cashing in as well. They live like "KINGS" in mansion in Chester, CT.
Something just feels no right about this guy. He seems to force people to be convinced they are healed and no longer need surgery.
I do believe God does heal people. I am not say that. I have just seen him try to convince people they are healed and no longer need surgery etc. when it's not the case.
Beware of Jason Westerfield and Kingdom Reality.
God Bless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have had a “run-in” with one of these “False Profits”(spelling intended);
"Kathie Walters"
A friend of mine got a piece of "Spam" from Kathie Walters, that really got her "spun-up", until I showed her that it was nothing but a piece of "Politically motivated" propaganda.
Kathie Walters is currently Spamming people on her mailing list spreading rumors about a bill (HR-875), a piece of legislation that is aimed at holding the large American food industry accountable for public safety.
Leave it to a BATTLE AXE like Kathie Walters to come to the aid of BIG BUSINESS, at the expense of the SAFETY of the GENERAL PUBLIC, and all in the name of GOD!
What pisses me off is instead of doing good deeds in the name of god, she is using her resources to combat the legislative branch of my government, when they are trying to look out for me!
She offers NO EVIDENCE for her WILD ACCUSATIONS;
(Congress is rushing this bill through fast to catch the american public off guard / They outlaw organic farms and “farmers markets” / They will make tending to a private garden a crime /)- I can’t decide if Kathis Walters is a coporate propagandist or suffering from “Paranoid- Schizophrenia”.
As far as I am concerned, this woman is a EVIL WITCH.
The following is few Emails shared between myself, and this dangerous political hack;
My 1st Email to Kathie Walters;
////////////
Hey Kathie Walters,
You are a LYING PIECE OF GARBAGE! Nowhere in HR-855 does it say ANYTHING about putting special regulations on organic farming. Organic farms ALREADY far exceed standards set by the FDA & USDA. And NOWHERE in this bill does it attempt to oversee or restrict personal gardens in ANY WAY!
People like you MAKE ME SICK. There is NOTHING LOWER, than a person such as yourself, who actually USES GOD AND THE CHURCH, in order to further YOUR OWN personal POLITICAL agenda.
You are nothing but a cheap SHILL for SAFEWAY, ALBERTSONS & WALMART.
YOUR RELIGION is GREED
and YOUR GOD is ANYTHING you can stick in YOUR BANK ACCOUNT
People like you DISGUST ME!
AMERICANS are through with the lies of garbage like you.
Your influence has caused many innocent people from around the world to suffer or die, and you have brought great shame to America in the eyes of the world,
and I as an AMERICAN VETERAN will fight GARBAGE LIKE YOU, with every breath that GOD gives me.
You are a PHONY CHRISTIAN, and an EVIL AMERICAN
Three words that describe you best; “Hypocrite”, “Blasphemer” & “Poison”
Her reply was;
/////////
you should read ALL THE reports and amendments - I think you are going to get a shock down the road -
It would be good for you to build a better vocabulary, it helps when you want make an impression -
Kathie Walters
http://www.kathiewaltersministry.com
My Reply back was;
////////////
Ok Kathie Walters( http://kathiewaltersministry.com)
Here is my reply to you.
Don’ t even try that “I’m superior to you” crap, it does not work with me. I know who I am, and I know EXACTLY what you are.
In fact, I KNOW the impression I am leaving on you. I make you nervous, because YOU KNOW that I have figured out that YOU are a FRAUD.
You are using Christianity as a tool to further your own PERSONAL political agenda!
You are in bed with the powerful food industry, and HR-875 will force this industry to operate with the safety of the general public in mind.
THAT IS ALL THIS BILL DOES!
You have made claims that this bill will;
cripple “The Local Farmer’s Markets”, and would hinder “The Organic Food Industry”. You have even gone as far as stating that the government will use HR-875 to shut down private gardens!
You say all these things in “spam like” Emails and have spread these allegations throughout the country.
And yet you offer NOT ONE SINGLE SHRED EVIDENCE to back up YOUR claims!
In “Legal terms”, this would be amongst other things; “Hearsay”
Under THE BIBLE, this would be called SPREADING FALSE RUMORS!
The way I see it you are racking up a multitude of violations against THE BIBLE;
-Spreading false rumors
-Mixing Church & State (”Render unto Caesar” -Jesus)
-Using the church of GOD to further a PERSONAL agenda
-Being a servant of the wealthy at the expense of the poor.
Yes, you are really “racking them up”, Kathie Walters!
I challenge YOU to SHOW ME where YOUR CLAIMS can be PROVEN
SEND ME PROOF
Show me IN THIS BILL where your WILD claims can be vindicated.
You have made some accusations, and you are spreading these accusations throughout the Internet.
It is YOU, who has the MORAL responsibility to substantiate YOUR DEEDS.
You have made wild and reckless claims, all under the false pretence of doing GODS work.
If you were truly in service of Christ, your convictions would be in conflict with your deeds, and you could not defend nor continue your path of deception.
As it stands, you have given up the opportunity to be a HEROINE for the poor and vulnerable, by choosing to be a WHORE for the wealthy and powerful!
I await your response,
Chuck
////////////
I’ll let you know if this NUTCASE responds,
Chuck
Whew, I don't know quite how to respond in the fact this dispute! I shall leave it to you and see if KW does respond further. Though personally I wouldn't write to KW and give her the names you have (I never feel that kind of thing strengthen's one's case even if and when it's justified) amusingly enough I do have to admit I regard her as a bit of witch and I am not especially surprised to find her on the questionable side of things.
I love Jason Westerfield. I believe He is a true brother in Christ Jesus.Someone complained that e lives in a big house...
...Is God not a God of wealth and riches? Poverty is a curse. it says in 1 Timothy 6:10 - "For the LOVE of money is the root of all evil." Yes. But, it is not at all wrong to have money and a nice house. it is a blessing from the Lord;
Jesus even says in John 14:2 - "In my Father's house are many mansions."
as far as the guy who kicks people to heal them, i don't know. But I do believe tat we serve Almighty God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is alive! Jesus says in John chapter 14 that we will do even greater works than He himself has done, not because we are greater than Him, but because He is ALIVE IN US! Haven't you read Acts? have you ever read the Bible? Don't you know that Jesus taught is to pray "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven." God wants us to press into His kingdom of supernatural.
Also, there is a lot of slander by your other commentors...calling people garbage..?
One man posted: "People like you DISGUST ME!"
I don't care what anybody has done, I don't believe Jesus would say that to anyone.
"In my Father's house are many mansions" is about the next life not this and tele-evangelists and others don't need to live in 25 room palaces obtained from gift offerings. Perhaps off the ground Westerfield has his mansions brought to him like the House of Loreto that flew, by angels but I gather however it obtained it, it's not a monument to modesty.
"The love of money is the root of many kinds of evil" is the modern more correct translation than "all kinds". But surely love of money is what's overwhelmingly manifested by tele-evangelists and others who obsess about the money issue and often live like lords.
I agree that "garbage" is not a way to refer to people and I had hesitations about including that mail re Kathy Walters though I profoundly distrust her. However let's recall Jesus did speak of "a generation of vipers" and referred to Herod as "that fox". One mustn't think of him as merely and only ever polite. Abuse is not right but condemnation is.
It is certainly interesting for me to read this blog. Thank you for it. I like such themes and anything that is connected to them. I would like to read a bit more on that blog soon.
In response to the comments regarding Jason Westerfield, I have been to his meetings I have seen things happen there with my own eyes. While I cannot comment on the other people mention in this article,I can personally comment on Jason. He is a wonderful man. He does NOT once say he is doing any of this,but that God is doing it. I beleive people havce gifts from God,I beleive in supernatural healing. I have personally experienced it. I went to one of his healing services. When I went in, I could not turn my neck-I pulled a muscle a few days prior and had been to the doctor and had been given meds that didnthelp. By the end of the service, I was healed. I could turn my neck without any pain.
As far as the money goes, people donate,its an offering. It costs money to further his ministry just like any where else. When I go to church,I tithe. When I go to a restaurant or the beauty salon,I tip people. It is no different. And besides who are we do judge him for being a good stewart with his money.
I don't feel I could adequately answer your comment here but where J Westerfield is concerned I just cannot be too happy about the source and management of his alleged powers. Too much of the angels talk and occultic flying around and weird stuff altogether and as I recall from a Sid Roth broadcast his first encounter with the divine sounded pretty suss and should have been more questioned. But if a preacher/healer is successful enough they are not really evaluated. Might such a person's healing be like the shamams more about managing spirits he banishes than divine energies he makes to enter?
I accept anyone needs to be able to pay for halls of healing, travelling expenses etc and so some collection is reasonable enough. Even so, "freely you have received, freely give" is the general gospel rule where such as healing missions are concerned but today pressures sometimes subtle, sometimes overt can be brought to bear on those attending healing sessions so that they will give handsomely.
I don't think that living in mansions or flying in private jets (albeit I don't think JW has graduated to the latter yet)necessarily marks what you call "good stewardship" of money, it could be merely clever and selfish management of funds though of course ultra luxurious living can get somewhat justified via "the American dream" itself. This Dream is by now a virtual doctrine, one that awaits adequate Christian critique. Calvin's controversial assumption that one proves one's elect status by the financial blessings upon one's life altered centuries of Christian belief. It would be most taken up in the US to which Calvin is godfather in certain respects.
It doesn't surprise me that any Christian would write about the H.R. 875 Bill. Because it is about the New World order agenda. Many Christians see the New World Order as the coming of the anti-christ.
H.R. 875 is just another example of how big government is trying to use corporations to control our food supply so we can no longer feed ourselves God's natural food. The person who was bashing Kathie Walters clearly did not understand that she is actually warning people against the evil corporations like Monsanto.
The Bill clearly states that any food that is not pre-approved by government, cannot be grown. Yes big government is federalizing the farming industry and forcing farmers to use seeds that THEY tell them are safe. Monsanto is a very real and dangerous threat to organic farming.
I think the message is absolutely relative to END time Bible prophecy.
And after reading your post Chuck, I think it is very clear to me that YOU are the one that sounds like the nutcase. I suggest you go back and re-read your adolescent rant before casting any stones. People like you that give Christianity a bad name.
Don't stop posting such articles. I like to read stories like this. BTW add more pics :)
Then you should watch out for my article on Maitreya. This will be out end Jan or beginning Feb. It's timely and a bit spectacular though it won't have pix, I think.
It is extremely interesting for me to read this post. Thank you for it. I like such topics and everything connected to them. BTW, try to add some photos :).
From what I read so far: all the prophets on tv are false prophets and they are getting rich by telling things that are not true, and these people (according to you) should be poor, although it takes money to preach the gospel and that is the mandate of Christ before He left. So, my question to you is: WHERE then are the REAL prophets and true ministers of God that are not out there to make a profit? You gave us the problem what is the solution? You have done a wonderful job pointed out the bad, where is the good? The persperctive you are showing is that God has left us here to fend for ourselves and Satan is having a great time with us and we are just a bunch of fools because we cannot tell the truth from the lie. "ONLY CHRISTIANS KILL THEIR OWN WOUNDED" this is true still and very evident in your site. Satan is having a great laugh. Your God, Sir, is in a 4" X 4" box. You claim to know God but deny his power. A kingdom divided will not stand and that is all you are promoting here. you will give an account to Him for this. Please consider your true motives.
Like Elijah or Obadiah’s prophets hidden in a cave, in most times and places there are usually prophets to be found if one goes looking for them though sometimes their presence skips a generation or two if conditions are particularly bad. As I’m not in America I can’t tell you where your prophets might be, though possibly you could find a name or two via the NZ expatriate in the US, Andrew Strom, who I gather is presently inveighing against the media hogging US prophets and preachers and forecasting divine judgement on them soon, even this year. If this is valid, perhaps the recently breaking scandal over Benny Hinn ends his reign and begins some kind of judgement for others. But you’re being hasty to condemn me. If you read others of my articles you will become aware of the terrible media and publishing (pre) censorship I have to suffer as regards even some of the most essential information I should be able to convey to Christian people and others. Read my soon out March ‘10 article on publishing issues and scandals. It’s because Christian people are not making enough fuss about obvious wrongs out there and not supporting me vis a vis them that various truths don’t get out and these situations continue…. Btw. I didn’t say that prophets must be poor, I merely insisted they should never be filthy rich conspicuous spenders with private jets and palatial homes. Often however prophets will be poor because their situation permits nothing else and they have to prepared for that. Do we know of a single biblical prophet who was wealthy? Well perhaps Abraham but he’s not a prophet in the strict sense and David if you include him was a king. (2.3.10)
There are rightfully so alot of strong opinions on this issue.. I have spent ALOT of time with these "prophets" over the last few years here in los Angeles and I have to say most of them are good people. As for thier giftings that may be a differant story. Most of them are like child stars who just get fed nothing but praise and worship from church goers. Most of them mean well but they are in such a warped reality that they have no comparison for what is normal. Yal need to know thier followers arnt like you and your christian friends. Thier followers worship them and take thier word as GOD. Somewhere along the path they start to believe thier own hype. Its kinda sad and i feel sorry for them. Ive been with Shawn Bolz,che ahn, bobby Conner,jill austin ect and they all really want to see God move. But If all you are valued for is your spiritual gifts thats where you think your value is. So that becomes thier identity. It is sad and frustrating because many of the people named are close friends of mine. They have alot to offer and honestly need peoples preayers. I will say that as for bill johnson....he really is an amazing man. Most of them exsagerate almost every story they tell and ive never seen 1 miracle amongst any of them but i have seen the genuine article with bill.However i have seen alot of geniune "words of knowledge" that were spot on i.e. names and sicknesses. When everybody freaks out about a sign or wonder bill Johnson is very quick to point them to jesus and remind them that if it was really a sign then jesus is the one its pointing to. The reality is that any good thats comming from most of these people is soooo overshadowed by the lack of maturity by the people following them. Which could be a product of alot of enphasis being on the miracles and signs and not the charachter to support it by the "prophits".
God works through His people who allow it. When we make brothers and sisters, superstars and celebrities, God is not pleased. Start allowing Him to do the miracles right where you are. Teach the average Christian how to do it. That's when we will see the church truly flow. I refuse to travel around the world for a touch of God. I can have it right here at home or with a small group
Jason Westerfield
Haha,after hearing about him through a friend i excitedly wanted to embrace his ministry until i heard him saying "God counterfeited 20 Rand bills at a meeting in South Africa". Sorry but my understanding is that God is not into mafia type business. He also spoke about there being a gigantic wind in one or other town in the USA ,saying "God told him it was due to angelic activity". Since when does God need a physical manifestation for spiritual matters. Normally when someone needs to suggest that God displays physical signs and wonders for spiritual matters it indicates that they lack spiritual depth desiring outward signs.
You are of course right to question the Rand bills but though I am plainly not for believing Jason for anything, it is at least theoretically possible that angels should manifest as winds. "He makes his angels winds..." is a statement of Heb 1:7. But I think the occasions would have to be very special!
We all love Jesus. We are all on the same team! Unity does not mean that we all agree, it just means we all love each other. You can't really believe that these great men and women of God have evil intentions or are wrong because it goes against what you think God does and doesn't do? Do you know everything there is to know about God? Satan loves this stuff. This does nothing but add to the division of the body of Christ. Put your energy into something that builds God's kingdom rather than tears down your brothers and sisters in Christ. By the way none of the above mentioned people are writing blogs sites to criticize what others are doing...just sayin...
I think you need to read material like John Bevere's "Thus saith the Lord" which supplies many examples of the kind of damage so-called prophets can do to people's lives and beliefs. I have only just seen the book and though not a notable Bevere fan am glad to recommend a meaningful book as people have been asking me for some advice in reading terms and this can help. Sometimes however regretfully we have to be divisive and critical and certainly the apostles had no time for the false prophecy and miracles of Simon Magus.
I have a question, who are the real prophets, and people that are doing signs, miracles healings etc.. from God?
That's a good question but as I am presently travelling (but not in America where most prophets hang out to be assessed!) I can't answer you too well. I do know that American, Philippines-based Timothy Snodgrass had vision in advance of the Asian Tsunami a few years ago, even to the details about Christians not heeding warnings which was the case when some Christian villages were wiped out in Indonesia. So I think he has some ability.
If healing were all I do think Australia's Sri Lankan born Pastor Danni Nalliah has real gifts but his prophetic ability is more controversial and he represents a real problem - a mixing of gifts that doesn't usually seem to work. One should be careful not to go beyond one's gifts and remit. The best prophets are those who aren't mere money making publicists (Snodgrass seems poor by the usual standards). But frankly I suspect the day of the real and major prophets has yet to come and will do as problems increase on earth.
You can always listen to the Sid Roth Show if you can do so with discernment. Some featured guests seem genuine, others are just fantasists and frauds that Roth should be ashamed to have on his programme.
I am Baptist, and have a degree in anthropology and theology. I believe God heals and does supernatural things. I've seen it in me and others all over the world. But Westerfield in very concerning.
He is actually causing real division in our churhc as many people who now follow him are more coneerned about buying Gold and how Spirituality in connected to the Gold price. They run around saying "God said this or that" and seem obsessed with UFO's and wierd spiritual beings. Those who are not going down this path are labelled as unspiritual.
I believe in prophecy but it is a gift for the edification and building of the body. Yet it seems this gift is also used form financial gain as people are saying God told me to biuy these shares on this certain day, or God told me to put all my money into Gold, another house etc.
There seems to be a lot of people shipwrecking their faith. Gold has caused wars. People die, rape, lie, rip off etc. for this precious metal. Companies destroy cultures, the enviroment and exploit people for it. Is listening to this guy brining you closer to God or is he isolating yourself via broken relationships and chasing wealth and time travel?
People who follow him give up their own personal relationhsip and dialouge with God and just accept whatever comes from his mouth as truth. Very cultish.
Anyone who wants to see him must discern and do their homework on him. Our church and many others are doing it tough as his power and influence over others is very dangerous.
[RE WESTERFIELD I am pasting here an important comment that says it's gone through but hasn't and won't]
I am Baptist, and have a degree in anthropology and theology. I believe God heals and does supernatural things. I've seen it in me and others all over the world. But Westerfield in very concerning.
He is actually causing real division in our church as many people who now follow him are more coneerned about buying Gold and how Spirituality in connected to the Gold price. They run around saying "God said this or that" and seem obsessed with UFO's and weird spiritual beings. Those who are not going down this path are labelled as unspiritual.
I believe in prophecy but it is a gift for the edification and building of the body. Yet it seems this gift is also used from financial gain as people are saying God told me to buy these shares on this certain day, or God told me to put all my money into Gold, another house etc.
There seems to be a lot of people shipwrecking their faith. Gold has caused wars. People die, rape, lie, rip off etc. for this precious metal. Companies destroy cultures, the enviroment and exploit people for it. Is listening to this guy brining you closer to God or is he isolating yourself via broken relationships and chasing wealth and time travel?
People who follow him give up their own personal relationhsip and dialouge with God and just accept whatever comes from his mouth as truth. Very cultish.
Anyone who wants to see him must discern and do their homework on him. Our church and many others are doing it tough as his power and influence over others is very dangerous.
what caused you to write all of this? one of my good friends is friends with bob jones, bobby conners and some of the others and he is a prophet who walks in such power of the Holy Ghost...could it be that you are spiritually inept to discern those who speak by the Holy Spirit? im not trying to attack you im trying to gain clarity...are you one of the types of believers that doesnt believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit or the 5 fold ministry? what type of background do you come from?
It doesn't look as though the last person's comment above yours (which I pasted in as it wouldn't "publish")and similar to this article's debate has made too much impression! But they are serious charges people are making in considerable agreement with what I'm saying, and they should be considered! People are getting hurt, misled, cheated and confused. And as to the Bob Jones you so like, among other things I am unimpressed by someone who only has to hold hands with people round a table to transport them to heaven or produce heavenly aromas like a spiritualist, a person who also reports that the devils of his youthful more alcholic phase became angels on his conversion and who will encourage anyone like Kathy Walters having gold dust over them as God kissing them. It's nonsense! How many biblical prophets had gold over their faces?
If you want to know where I am coming from, ideas and beliefs-wise, you can read it in my "Cosmic Father: Spirituality as Relationship" (available on Amazon and there are some pages of excerpts on www.freado.com. that can be read for free). Parts of the book are quite dramatic and don't imply lack of religious experience or authority to speak in these areas. But I have to say....having been born in Europe, raised an Anglican and living in Australia, I just cannot accept a lot that passes for prophecy and religion in America (which I have visited several times) where too much is overly staged and over commercial. If one were to listen carefully to what is being said and really think about what these "prophets" are doing you might realize what terrible deceptions are getting practiced. Just citing biblical texts or even having apparent powers is not enough. Haven't you read, for example, how some exorcists claim demons can be commanded before leaving to repair the damage done by them - in other words after a manner they can "heal"? This could be a warning in itself not to accept just every healing or manifestation of power you see as automatically from the Spirit. "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord...." and you presumably know what kind of claims to power are being claimed in this instance by those who nonetheless stand condemned.
It is interesting there are some in these days who sit in judgment of other people, maybe sometimes out of jealously, and start slandering people and their ministries without knowing exactly who these people are.
Now you can sit in a corner and point fingers and say "false prophet" all you want, but maybe you are feeling guilty that your own life isn't bearing any fruit yourself.
Of course He said in the last days there would arise many false prophets, but I think you should start seeing with your own eyes and put on spiritual eyes, and let God show the way.
If any of these people are bearing fruit, and point the way to God and to Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah), then how do you argue they are not from God?
I have listened to Jason Westerfield and some interviews and teachings surrounding him for awhile now, and don't see how you get off saying these slanderous comments towards him.
He has stated Yeshua (Jesus) has appeared to him, taken in the spirit to heaven itself and to other locations via the spirit, and has been taught many things by Yeshua himself. How is that evil?
God appeared to people all through the Tanakh (Old Testament)people has heard and seen God and how believers in the book of Acts heard from Him. So how is it you now persecute people for saying God appears to and speaks to them?
"Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him." John 9:31
There will be some kind of answer to what you are saying in the next article here out - should be out
1st or 2nd of June
I think sometimes people start off with humility and good intentions to serve the Lord but the fame, adoration and peer pressure to compete with other Christian celebrities may get the best of them. Could it be some of these people started with a real thirst for God and got caught up in the hype and adoration of Mega-crowds? I think some may start feeling like little gods that deserve the accolades and riches because God needs them. Maybe they need to remember that the Lord is uncaused, eternally self existent and needs no one. He certainly did not need Copeland, Dollar, Price, Patricia King and the rest to create this universe out of nothing. If he used a Donkey (jackass) in the Old Testament he can use them and anybody he chooses not because they are uh so special and great but because God is the one that is special and great. He can sit them down as fast as (he allowed them) to be esteemed and exalted.
As for these people living in Mansion I just don't understand it. You can only occupy one room at a time and sleep in one bed in one room each night. A mansion takes lots of expensive upkeep and money to maintain. Washing the windows alone must take a truckload of cash. It is excessive greed to the max. degree, if you ask me. Unless you have a very large family or unless you are sharing the Mansion with out of work Christians or Missionaries on sabbatical it is all vanity of vanities to quote Ecclesiastes!
They include such iffy writers, preachers or campaigners (many promoted on Steve Scultz's Elijah list on the Net)as:
What exactly has Francis Frangipane done to be associated with these nutjobs? Ok he has written some stuff about demons and spirits, but surely nothing as off the wall as these other guys and galls.
Hey I'm just a student, but i think that I might have something worth saying. All I really want to point out is that not one man can put God in a box. I completely believe in wild manifestations of the holy spirit having witnessed a few myself, and I also know that he doesn't ALWAYS operate in a glory-cloud-mighty-wind-slain-in-the-spirit way. But to say that someone is a false prophet just because their manifestations are out of the ordinary is actually unbiblical. What matters as previously mentioned before is the fruit of what they are preaching. If they ultimately point to Jesus Christ, that I see no problem even if i don't see completely eye to eye with their theology. WE are to operate in a spirit of discernment, but not ubelief.
Really necessary to identify the false prophets of our perilous times, and tell people to be warned of their insidious ways. Their ways are death. I was in the pentecostal heresy for years...till G-d opened my eyes. Really deceptive is deception. There is cancer in the church tonight-as Ravenhill said. I hope people wake up.
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